Blizzard & Bloom: Insights from the Ice and the Green Scene

Risk, Responsibility, and Research in Snow Management

• Jay Rotonnelli

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David Gallagher takes us on a compelling journey through his 30-year career in snow and ice management, from his humble beginnings with a shovel at age 13 to becoming a pivotal figure in shaping national industry standards. With candid storytelling and deep expertise, he reveals the three archetypes of snow professionals and how this categorization affects business approaches and personal satisfaction within the field.

The heart of our conversation explores the critical work happening through the SIMA Foundation—the charitable arm of the Snow & Ice Management Association that's transforming the industry through research, education, and advocacy. Unlike its parent organization, the Foundation's 501(c)(3) status allows for tax-deductible contributions that fund vital research projects establishing scientific benchmarks for everything from salt application rates to operational best practices. This proactive approach helps contractors improve their businesses while heading off potentially problematic government regulations.

Gallagher speaks passionately about the liability challenges facing snow contractors, who often shoulder disproportionate responsibility for slip-and-fall incidents regardless of circumstances. Through SIMA's legislative efforts, progress is being made at state levels to create more equitable standards that protect both public safety and contractor viability. He articulates a balanced perspective that acknowledges contractor responsibility while recognizing the impossibility of creating completely risk-free environments during winter weather events.

Whether you run a single-truck operation or manage hundreds of pieces of equipment, this episode offers invaluable insights into how industry engagement can transform your business. Gallagher emphasizes that merely paying membership dues isn't enough—active participation in education, committees and industry events is what drives true professional growth. The Alan Steinman Scholarship program represents this commitment to bringing new voices into the community, supporting first-time attendees at SIMA events and continuing the legacy of industry mentorship.

Ready to contribute to the advancement of your industry or access resources that could transform your snow management operation? Visit sima.org and click on the Foundation link, or connect directly with David Gallagher through LinkedIn or Facebook to learn how you can get involved.

Speaker 1:

Welcome to Blizzard and Bloom, the podcast where we navigate the storms and celebrate the triumphs in business and entrepreneurship. Join us as we dive into stories, insights and strategies from top professionals to help you thrive in today's evolving landscape. And now here is your host, jay Rotinelli. Here is your host, jay.

Speaker 2:

Rotinelli. Hello, welcome back to another episode of Blizzard Bloom. Last episode we spoke with Megan Kirshner, immigration attorney, down in Texas and talked about some of the challenges that some folks are having from a labor standpoint. And then you know what's happening now in the world of immigration with the new administration and how things are looking for folks moving forward and the path that, if they want to get onto the H-2B program, the path they should be following. So feel free to catch up with that episode Today. Super excited to have special guests. We've got Dave Gallagher here from Spiritus Advisors. Dave and I I've been fortunate to get to meet Dave several years ago. He was a business coach for me or for the company I worked with and for myself, and had an opportunity to gain a lot of knowledge, not only the snow industry but from a sales and business perspective in general. So, kind of without further ado, welcome to the show, david, and appreciate you having me on this morning.

Speaker 3:

Absolutely, Dave.

Speaker 2:

great to be here I wanted to, uh, just start. So when I think of snow, um, who do I, who do I? Think of last names? I think of um, toronto and smith and allen and gallagher, and I think about all the folks that have been in the industry for a long time, and many others. Right, alan Steinman, I just wanted to have you take a minute just to, because some folks are unfortunate, like myself, to get to know you and wanted you to give a little background of who you are and how you get started in the industry.

Speaker 3:

Sure, as they said, my name is David Gallagher.

Speaker 3:

I've been involved in the snow industry for 30 plus or minus years now, as much as it pains me to admit that out loud. I started in the industry, just like most of you probably did, with a shovel in my hand at the age of I don't know 13 or 14 in eastern Pennsylvania, just outside of Allentown. Just outside of Allentown, and I ended up working during the winter on snow removal for a contractor there that largely did commercial landscape and snow management services. He convinced me to come work for him in the wintertime and continued to try to convince me to come work for him in the wintertime and continue to try to convince me to come work for him in the summertime for a long time before I actually did. Back in those days I was more focused on, you know, working on my best friend's family farm than I was too much else, and he always made the argument that landscapers did the same thing farmers did. They just used smaller tractors. And I always responded well, bigger tractors are cooler, so you lose. But there wasn't a lot of farming going on other than dealing with some animals and trimming some fence lines in the wintertime. So I went to help them do snow and the first few times I helped them I worked behind a snow shovel and it didn't take long for him to figure out that I did have in those days, a very limited, a bit of experience operating equipment, but still had the experience nonetheless. And before I officially had a driver's license, I was running a loader in the wintertime for him doing snow removal and pretty quickly at that point, you know, just fell in love with it.

Speaker 3:

You know they're kind of three types, it you know, there, there there are kind of three types of people, in my opinion, in the world as it relates to snow removal and its exercise. You know there's those of us that absolutely wouldn't want to live without it, right, and find some way to be involved, regardless of what happens in our lives. You know there's those people that tolerate it and do it because they feel like it's a necessary evil and they don't have any choice. And then those people that don't care how much of a necessary evil is and they'll never want anything to do with it again in their life, regardless of the scenario or the circumstance, right, right, so you know I, I took those experiences and spent you know as many hours as I had the opportunity to, you know, working with him through the winters and through the organization. You know whether that was in a piece of equipment, whether that was in a truck plowing or whether that was, you know, literally with a shovel or a snowblower, you know, doing kind of whatever needed to be done, regardless of a point in time.

Speaker 3:

And I worked with that organization in the wintertime for for a long time. Like I said, I started helping them when I was 13 or 14 years old. I moved to Western Pennsylvania in 2005, 2006, and literally helped them in some way, shape or form almost every winter up until up until that point. There was probably a few circumstances in there or years in there where I didn't, but in my time in college I'd be home, you know, whenever I had the opportunity to be home and help them do snow work in the wintertime. Eventually he convinced me to come work for him in the summer when I realized I needed more money to put myself through college than I was going to make on the farm, you know. So I did both. So I worked as a landscaper during the day and I worked as a you know, as a farmhand at night and days. We didn't work, you know, as landscapers and I did that for a pretty long time too. So you know that was really my introduction to the business. Both sides, green and white with that organization.

Speaker 3:

There just outside Allentown Organization's still in business today had a quote, generational transfer. His son-in-law purchased the business. Has grown that business since that time. Well-known brands outside Allentown doing primarily commercial landscape maintenance and snow work, good reputation, good group of people, you know, awesome team. So you know it's rewarding to me, even though I don't feel like I really had anything to do with its success over the years, to know that it's still around, right, and it's still there and I still have, you know, some sort of a connection to that business, be it informal, but it's still. I still have a connection there, right. I know the owner. You know the current owner well. I still know the existing owner and and his wife, who both worked in the business for most of their time, uh, in the career, in their, in the business and uh, you know, I still still keep up on what's going on cool.

Speaker 2:

I appreciate that background and I remember you sharing with us some of the background, some of the stories and your friend's uh, father, um, on the farm and in some really big lessons that were learned right, so, uh, those things kind of stuck with me, which which is pretty neat, which is pretty neat. So, um, you know, I I, as we start talking more, or we start hearing more about larger snow removal operations that have now branched out not only regionally but nationally, and not something that's new, but with social media and a lot of those inputs and media outlets, we're hearing more and more about that. I know you had some experience on a regional and national level and I'm not sure how you got your teeth into that, but can you share a little bit of that on, kind of how you took it from a real local level to a regional and national?

Speaker 3:

So, right, I talked about my intro and my start in the industry. I've done a handful of other things, you know. Certainly since then. Yeah, I tried to go back to what I felt like were my roots and my original calling in production, agriculture and, honestly, to today still do with some of my own personal quote farming endeavors that we've started to participate in here. But you know, I went to work, actually, for the brother of the guy that I first worked for in the industry. He owned a high-end residential landscape and snow removal business in the same area. You know I helped put that business to do a little bit more commercial snow removal work.

Speaker 3:

Back in those days we started doing work as a subcontractor for an organization that you know some of the listeners probably recognize Snow Management Group, one of the original, if not the original kind of national snow removal provider. Right, regardless of which side of the fence you're on when you hear that name, right? The positives or the negatives, right, there's always both. Yeah, that's where I got my start ultimately, kind of in that national snow removal game. Ultimately, I ended up going to work for Snow Management Group after performing as a subcontractor for them for two or three years. I worked in that organization through the buyout that took place when Symbiote purchased Snow Management Group and took over um, their, their contract and their contractor base, um, I stayed with Symbiote for um a few years. Through that transition, um was the second last Snow Management Group employee to to leave Symbiote. Um, the last, coinc, was the daughter of the original owner and founder of Snow Management Group. She was a risk manager there and helped manage insurance certificates and requirements and such for their subcontractor base.

Speaker 3:

But you know, through that time I spent you know, whatever that span was five, six, seven years, something in that vicinity traveling the country, literally chasing storms, a lot of that time watching how things got done, learning how things got done in other places of the country.

Speaker 3:

Spent a significant amount of that time training contractors at a business owner level and at an operator level, to quote. To quote be more effective, be more efficient, do better as it related to performing snow removal services and at the same time right, interacted at a high volume with our existing customers or prospective customers in order to define scopes of work, in order to lay out levels of expectation and really help both sides understand how things could and should be performed most effectively right from a cost-effective perspective, but also from a, you know, from a risk management perspective, right. No, at the end of the day, as a service it's certainly highly operational, right. But if you really boil it down to what it provides, it's risk management management. I mean, it's some kind of an insurance policy for the business owner, manager, property owner, manager, right to one transfer risk or manage risk for slips and falls and other scenarios that come out of significant or non-significant snow event, regardless of where they happen.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, that's interesting and, you know, kind of leads me to the next topic of SEMA Snow and Ice Management Association and it really just kind of dovetails off what you're saying, like there's an education and there's, you know, business to it.

Speaker 2:

Right, it's not just operations and it's not just business, and how do you bring those two pieces together so that there's training and efforts put forth and best management practices to handle for anything from either developing RFPs or implementing and executing on a storm level to the follow-up. So you have done a tremendous amount of work for the industry at large, you know, through not only your own efforts but through CYMA, and you know people are very fortunate to have you and your inputs on that. Subsequently now I know you've been very involved with another portion of CYMA which is the Syma Foundation, and I think you know getting the word out there and talking about this foundation and you know kind of the nuts and bolts of it and what the outputs look like and what the future looks like for it, and I was hoping we could spend a little time. You could share a little bit about the Syma Foundation and some of the efforts going forth with that.

Speaker 3:

Absolutely, absolutely. So, yeah, I think I'll start with, as I typically would, right, the definition lesson. Right, because vocabulary is important. You know, I think what a lot of people probably don't understand is that, while Simon itself right, the original traditional trade organization is a nonprofit organization. The original traditional trade organization is a nonprofit organization, right, it's not a charitable quote. Nonprofit, right.

Speaker 3:

So the federal government, in their infinite wisdom, right, has different classifications and definitions for organization types. Right provided to a nonprofit organization to be tax deductible for the person doing the donating or the contributing, it has to be designated as a 501c3 or another few very minute number of classifications with certain special criteria. Right. So the organization proper. Right, the trade organization CYMA is not a 501c3. Organization proper, right, the trade organization CYMA is not a 501c3. Any donation or contributions made to that organization are not theoretically tax deductible, right.

Speaker 3:

So what trade organizations like CYMA across the board do in a lot of instances, whether it's, you know, the Green Industry Organization, right, planet, or you know any of your trucking organizations or any of your trade organizations that exist, many of them create a charitable foundation, right. So the Syma Foundation is that for Syma, it's a true 501c3 charitable organization, right. The mission, from a foundation perspective, is very closely aligned with Syma, the trade organization's mission, right. The difference is that our goals or our focus areas are on things that are taking charitable donations, charitable contributions from donors, and leveraging them to expand or magnify the mission points of the trade organization at large Right. So you know our three primary pillars are research right, and education, being able to take charitable dollars and fund research projects for the private sector snow industry, you know to understand how things are being impacted in the world at large related to thermal right.

Speaker 3:

What are sound benchmarking practices as it relates to profitability? And you know workplace metrics like salary ranges or pay ranges or the types of benefits packages that are provided to employees in the industry? Right, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. Right, what kinds of salt use rates are appropriate for private sector use versus public sector use? Right, for a long time there was volumes of salt research public sector side. Right. There's a very small volume of private sector cell research that's been done that provides any sort of real guidance on cell use volumes and application rates in the private sector versus the public sector.

Speaker 3:

There's some ads you can help improve on best practices, really validate assumptions that have been made over time, you know, or contradict them, right. Sometimes that happens and that's not always real popular, right? But you know, the reality at the end of the day is that both the trade organization and the foundation, and certainly me personally, believe that if we don't find a way to do this kind of research and to prove or disprove and drive best practices on our own, what always happens is going to happen right in the federal and or the state governments are going to step in and they're going to dictate how we do it. And the reality at the end of the day is, as well meaning as they might be, it's not ever going to be based on science or based on true, actual best practice, right? It's going to be based on some political agenda or otherwise, right? And that is what it is. We can debate politics another day.

Speaker 3:

But the reality is most things the government gets involved with. They don't get easier, they get more complicated and they don't typically get better for the people producing the service. They typically get worse. They don't typically get better for the people producing the service. They typically get worse. And while there may be minute or random improvements in environmental impacts or those things, they typically come at much higher costs than is worth it from a return perspective, at least in my opinion. Right, so that's part of what we're trying to do, right. The other side of that, the other two points from a foundation perspective, are to be able to communicate and generate branding activities that help the general public, as well as contractors, really understand the benefits of the foundation and the industry at large and why they should all care and get involved and understand what it is that the industry at large provides and how it provides that. And then, thirdly, provide for educational opportunities through scholarship. Right. So we've you mentioned Alan Steinman when we first got started, you know I credit Alan with you know, very early on in my snow career with driving me to follow through on a pure snow career. Right, he was the one of the reasons why, or one of the one of the guides or or leaders, mentors, that convinced me to take the plunge and go work for snow management group and focus 100 percent of my professional time and career on snow removal. Right, um, we? Uh. As many conversations with alan probably took place over the years. We were sitting at a bar at a time event having conversations about things that were going on and I happen happened to mention that you know, the elite informal offer was made for me to consider a career at Snow Management Group and you know he convinced me that from his perspective that would be a good idea. Right, and ultimately it was one of the reasons why I decided that it was a good idea for me and I did it. But when Alan was ill, and you know, certainly shortly after he passed away, simon Properer, simon, you know the trade organization created a scholarship fund in Alan's name and in his honor and memory. The foundation has since taken that over because we feel like we've got a better mission and a better perspective to be able to manage and and and and handle that and then, from that standpoint, we've been able to actually grow that from a single scholarship provided annually which is where it started to, you know, multiples, and you know we have a goal to continue to grow the number of scholarships that we provide to people First time attendees of the show, you know is one of the primary criteria and it provides for them to attend the show basically for free. Their registration is covered. They get a stipend for travel and lodging while they're at the show. Right, they've certainly got their out-of-pocket expenses and some other, you know, ancillary things, but at the end of the day it covers the greatest majority of the expense.

Speaker 3:

You know, I personally know some of the winners right of the Steinman Scholarship over the years. You know one of them, one of the more recent ones, happens to be a mentee of mine and I'm helping him, you know, grow and mold his business here locally. You know it's rewarding to me to be able to continue Alan's legacy in that regard. Right, alan was always looking for people to help. He was always looking for ways to connect with new people that he didn't know and help them grow their knowledge and their professionalism and their understanding of the industry at large and how they should be good stewards of it and participate in it. You know, and I see it as everyone's responsibility although not everyone always takes on the mantle right to continue to do that in some way. So this is one of my ways to do that, both in helping people like that, but also in serving on the Foundation Board to help further missions like that Neat on the foundation board to help further missions like that, nate, it's.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, allen Stein is certainly a big name and a huge advocate for the snow industry and getting people involved in that, and you can't be more thankful for folks like him and yourself. So when we talk about some of those educational opportunities, then we talk about the research and things of that nature. You know, things come to mind for me, things come to mind like Phil Sexton, the New Hampshire Green Snow Pro Certifications, the things that are happening in Minnesota and really just how the CIMA organization is really trying to drive down that level of research and make it not about bureaucracy, right, or politics. It's make it about what really is most important for certainly being good stewards of the environment, but also too, from a legal and safety standpoint for contractors, because the contractors, you know, while we provide basically risk litigation out there, we sometimes have the least protection right. So when we start to drive it down to those local levels, that's where I think Simon's been very impactful as well, helping on that level.

Speaker 3:

So at the end of the day, is that you know, many of the things related to who carries the risk and who holds the liability, right are managed at a state legislature level.

Speaker 3:

Right, they're dictated there. Right, state rights are a thing, they're one of the, you know, primary principles of our federal structure of government, at least by the intent of the founders, in my opinion, the founders, in my opinion, you know. So, state legislation and law ultimately has to be paid direct attention to and energy put into it in order for us to be able to help contractors manage their own risk. Right, because, at the end of the day, you're right, you said something in there to the effect of you know, they're typically, you know, carrying a lot of it and maybe some of it in volume is even unfair. Right, and that's true. Right, they're often carrying a lot of it and maybe some of it in volume is even unfair, and that's true. They're often left with a liability bag because somewhere along the line, somebody wrote a contract that gave them all the liability and they accepted it by signing the agreement. Any real guidance from a legal precedent or just a law, legislative perspective at the state or other level that dictated whether that could or couldn't be done. Right, and I think CIMA itself, through its Legislative Action Committee efforts, has done a lot in a number of states to help get legislation passed at a state level that limits the amount of liability that can be placed or put onto contractors. Right, and I think that's only right and appropriate. Right, I mean at the end of the day, yes, contractors are responsible for delivering a service that's supposed to help reduce or mitigate risk, but the reality at the end of the day is nothing could ever be done appropriately, and maybe even inappropriately, to truly provide a completely safe, completely liability-free environment related to snow and ice management. It's just not possible, right.

Speaker 3:

So somewhere along the line, right, this concept that we've furthered and facilitated in our society, that somebody's got to be always completely liable, just isn't fair and it isn't true. Right, I mean, at the end of the day, there's, there's some reality that says things are going to happen that are outside of every or anyone's individual control and we just have to accept that right. And then there's some level of liability that I think people do have to take responsibility for and accept. Right, I think, a contractor that doesn't follow best practice and is negligent in their delivery of service. You know they don't show up, they don't apply materials or they don't apply them properly, resulting in or at least partially resulting in an injury, right, they should carry some liability for that. There's no question in my mind, right, and I'm perfectly comfortable with contractual language and law that says that. Right.

Speaker 3:

But to say that I'm completely responsible for every slip and fall that happens on the property, regardless of time of day, regardless of day of week, you know, regardless of weather circumstance, that's not fair, right, and I shouldn't, as a contractor, or no one else as a contractor, frankly, should have to take on those types of volumes of responsibility.

Speaker 3:

So you know there's got to be a balance, you know there's got to be some level of common sense for whatever that really means in the world today. Applied, you know and unfortunately we've come to a place societally that that probably means that it requires some volume of legislation in order to define it. Right, as much as I just like the idea, right, if you can't tell, I'm pretty libertarian in my views and I don't believe that legislation solves all problems. As a matter of fact, I don't believe that it solves most. But the reality is it's become a pseudo requirement in a lot of instances, because people just need somewhere to go to understand what, what they can or can't, or should or shouldn't be able to do or not, to right and right, wrong or indifferent, it's.

Speaker 2:

It's the world we live in yeah, absolutely now, very well said and good pointers, and I think, um, you know, like to your point, that there's two sides of it and there's never, there's never been an instance where you've had the same exact storm replicated right. Every storm is different. You know to put all the pieces together the moisture, the, the surface temps, the air temps, it everything falls, and it is never playing the perfect deck of cards. So when I think about you know, I've been hearing a lot about you know snow removal companies and following them on social media and LinkedIn and some of the larger companies that are out there doing and they're doing great things, but then I think about some of the smaller contractors who really either A aren't educated enough and or B really want to go out there and try to do a decent job. They want to get out there, they want to be professional Nobody's there and try to do a decent job. They want to get out there, they want to be professional. Nobody's going out there to do a crappy job.

Speaker 2:

I don't believe that's not the intent. So when I think about these smaller companies and organizations, I'm not sure they sometimes understand that there's room there for them as well and they are a big, intricate part of the snow removal industry and they can play with the big competitors, and by that I mean they could deliver really good service as well. So, regardless how big or small. So I think about Syma and the Syma Foundation and how impactful that can be for maybe some of the smaller contractors or new folks getting in the industry. Is that safe to say that you know that's a good avenue for them to?

Speaker 3:

when we talk about education and research and so forth, Absolutely, and I would argue that it's more than safe to say right, I mean, it's exactly the intent of the Simon Trade Organization. Right and certainly you know follow suit with the mission of the foundation Trade Organization. Right and certainly you know follow suit with the mission of the foundation right, is to be able to touch and reach and interact with as many of the physical contractors that exist in North America delivering snow and ice management services. Right, I mean, you know education and the facilitation of best practices and improvement of the industry and all of the contractors in it is ultimately the mission of the organization, both collectively right, and you know the snow industry isn't a lot different than the green industry. Right, that you know the majority of the organizations in count and arguably even in volumes of revenue generated, right, are smaller. The smallest organizations that exist in the industry, not the largest, right, the largest get more airplay. Right, they get more of the attention because they've got the resources to spread a message and to you know, to be able to perpetuate messages that are seen and heard and made recognizable. Right, but every single contractor, whether they got one truck and one operator or whether they got a thousand trucks and you know, 500 pieces of heavy machinery right, and all of the operators go along with it, right are equally integral to the delivery of service in the industry and to serving the clients that exist. Right, because the 1,000-truck fleet and 500-heavy equipment fleet organizations aren't going to necessarily serve the same customers that the single-truck organizations are going to serve, right.

Speaker 3:

Yes, sure, there's the old adage, right, there's plenty of blacktop out there for all of us, right, and the reality is just that. Right. There's new contractors that come into the marketplace Every there for all of us, right, and the reality is just that right. There's new contractors that come into the marketplace Every day might be a stretch, but you know, certainly every year, right. There's old ones that go away, right, there's ones that get acquired and aggregated into new businesses and there's creative customers. That happens in those processes and you know, at the end of the day, there's new businesses that are opening and there's new structures and new parking lots being paved. And you know, at the end of the day, there's new businesses that are opening and there's new structures and new parking lots being paved, and you know, at some point they'll have to stop because we're going to run out of land to do it on. But you know, we're still a little ways away from that.

Speaker 3:

Certainly, my argument would be that the smaller contractors are more integral and it's more important that they get involved in CYMA, in any of the trade organizations that they have the opportunity to, in order to gain education, in order to understand how others are operating, in order to understand what best practices are Right. The only real way that people are going to know is if they hear, if they're told, if they try right and and you might try on your own and and learn some things through trial and error on your own. You know, but you're still only going to come a certain length of the way to where you need to be in that exercise. Yes, you know, everybody's got to learn from somewhere else, learn from others in some way in order to make the best of themselves and of their organization right, and there's no better place to do that than the trade organizations and getting involved. And when I say getting involved, I don't just mean writing a membership check right At the end of the day. That doesn't solve anything, it doesn't truly do anything for the organization or the individuals within it. You have to physically get involved right To the point you made.

Speaker 3:

You said a couple of times of all the things you know that I've done, or you know that I've done a lot of things for the industry and I appreciate that, but I don't know that I necessarily see it that way. Right, I see it as I went and I volunteered and I got involved and I ended up on committees and I put in time and energy and effort into learning. And I put in time and energy and effort into learning and then I took what I learned and I refined it and I'm able to then, you know, provide it back to the organization or others in the organization at large. You know, simply because of the opportunities and the learning and the education that I have the ability to do. That is because I got involved, because I ended up on a committee, because I participated in in education right because then I took the education I got right, I practiced the education in in the real world right.

Speaker 1:

And then I took that and I turned around and I taught someone else right.

Speaker 3:

You know a lot of people don't necessarily know it right, but that's the way surgeons become. Um, you know, practice, practice right. They watch one right, they learn one, you know they do one, and then ultimately they're required to teach one right, and it's not literally just one right.

Speaker 3:

It's watch it done, you know, do it and then ultimately teach it to someone else. Observe it being done by someone else, right? So I see that you know it's our own rules of thumb, right? That's my general approach, right? I want to be able to observe it done. I want to be able to learn it from someone else. I want to be able to practice it or do it, and then I want to be able to go teach somebody else how to do it, you know. And even better than that, sometimes I want to be able to watch someone else teach someone else how to do it too. You know, and that's the only way you're going to get benefit out of Simo or any other trade organization. Right is to get involved, not simply just write a membership check Membership in and of itself. Right to use. The American are saying and really trying to understand how that could or should or maybe doesn't apply to you and your exercise.

Speaker 2:

Sure, and there's always room in the arena. And I think, when you align yourself with folks that are really doing great business practice management and getting out there and getting themselves involved with these associations and then, to your point, practicing it right, practicing it and then teaching it and being a part of that, so that you're helping being part of the solution to not only the industry at large but for yourself as well, so it's amazing how many great people you can meet out there, networking so when we talk about, you know, back to the Syma Foundation.

Speaker 2:

What is? I know there's a lot of folks listening that are going to probably want to be able to help and, you know, be a part of that uh, donations, whatever it might be. What's the best way that they can gather more information on that? They could be a part of that, you know. Foundation sure?

Speaker 3:

so, um, if you go to the thima website, which is thimaorg, um, there is a link on the thima website to, um, the foundation, and if you give me a second here, I'm gonna the at the menu bar across the top of simaorg, all right about not quite in the middle, just to the right in middle. There's a link there for for the foundation. Um, yeah, if you click on that link, um, there's a, there's a couple of pages related of information related to the foundation, and you know that's certainly a great place to start. You can reach out to myself if they'd like to and communicate with me. I can be found on LinkedIn, I can be found on Facebook. Great, I can give you my email address and you can provide that to your viewers and they can feel free to reach out at any time, and I'd be happy to fill in the blanks if necessary as well.

Speaker 2:

Great. Thank you for that. And you know I had some great conversation with Martin a few weeks ago, a couple of different times and really really looking to get some legs behind the Simon Foundation. You know, just for all the folks listening, it's a great organization. It's really about supporting back, supporting us and the folks that are in the industry. So. But you know there's a way to go about it in a way that is most beneficial to the trade organization as well, to us. It's kind of the end user I'm going to call it and what our benefits are out of it. So I think it's great. I've seen a lot of great things happening. I saw the auction going on before the holidays, raised some money with that, had some fun with it. I wanted to get the tailgate with Billy, but I don't think I got that one. But I was able to spend some time with Thane and Martin on Getaway. We had a great time with that.

Speaker 2:

But very very good stuff. So thanks again for being on the show today, thanks again for all you've done for the industry at large, and I'm sure people are going to want to reach out to you. You can catch Dave at LinkedIn or on Facebook and he's a wealth of knowledge, so please reach out should you have any questions. So thanks, dave. Appreciate your time today Absolutely.

Speaker 3:

Thanks, Dave.

Speaker 1:

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